AT THE HEART OF IT – EPISODE 5

ROHINI NILEKANI AND MELINDA FRENCH GATES
Funding Hope and Wellbeing

In this insightful conversation, Rohini Nilekani, Chairperson of Rohini Nilekani Philanthropies, engages in a heartfelt conversation with Melinda French Gates, Founder of Pivotal Ventures, about the power of wellbeing to inspire welldoing. As part of The Wellbeing Project’s new series, “Cultivating Hope”, Rohini and Melinda discuss the critical role of philanthropy in supporting the wellbeing of social changemakers.

Building on Rohini’s keynote address at the first regional Hearth Summit in India, they highlight how funding wellbeing initiatives can lead to sustainable impact in the social sector. By sharing their own personal wellbeing practices, they offer invaluable insights into the importance of nurturing both inner and outer work. Let’s get to the heart of it.

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LISTEN TO EPISODE 5
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From This Episode

Full episode transcript Full episode transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity

Welcome to At The Heart Of It, a podcast where we explore issues at the heart of our world’s biggest challenges and their solutions. We’re on a journey inward going into ourselves, reflecting on who we are, listening to humanity’s collective story. Our guides are the visionary leaders, activists, scholars, and practitioners who are changing the world and whose own inner journeys of wellbeing inspire their welldoing.

You may know that at The Wellbeing Project, we believe wellbeing inspires welldoing. This means that when social changeamkers’ wellbeing is cared for, their power to make the world a better place is even stronger. But sometimes changemakers have limited access to wellbeing resources, and this funding gap is holding back progress both now and for future generations.

To make a difference, philanthropy and funding organizations can play a key role in making wellbeing more accessible to the people who need it now more than ever. For today’s episode, we bring you a profound conversation from our new video series, Cultivating Hope, where leading philanthropists share how funding wellbeing is a key way to cultivate hope and sustainable impact in the social change sector.

Our special guest host is Rohini Nilekani, Chairperson of Rohini Nilekani Philanthropies, who sits down with her friend and fellow philanthropist, Melinda French Gates, founder of Pivotal Ventures, for an intimate conversation on their own wellbeing journeys, why it’s important to fund changemakers’ wellbeing, and the role philanthropy plays in driving transformative positive progress.

Let’s get to the heart of it. 

Rohini Nilekani (RN): Hi, Melinda. It’s so good to see you.

Melinda French Gates (MFG): Hi, Rohini. I’m so glad we could do this.

RN: Yeah, I’m so glad The Wellbeing Project asked us to be in this, what I think is an important conversation that should ring around the world. And with you there, I hope that will happen. 

MFG: Okay, good. 

RN: You know, I’m going to kick it off, Melinda. We’re going to talk a little more about the wellbeing of the social sector, which is what The Wellbeing Project is mostly involved with. But I want to ask you about your own journey, and I’m happy to share mine later. But how do you see the journey of your own wellbeing? I mean, it keeps changing across our lives, but anything you’d like to share about what you do, or how important you think it is and any words to share with us? 

MFG: Yeah, I think wellbeing is fundamental in terms of me doing the work that I try and do in the world. And for me, it’s when I’m sort of at my best, I think when I can align my heart, my spirit and my mind. And for me, I’ve had to develop over the last, I would say 25 years, a kind of a set of practices that helped me do that. I’d love to hear some of yours, but I’ll tell you a few of mine, which is I try in the morning, every morning to do just a little bit of yoga and then I sit and I either read something spiritual and journal or meditate on that, or I just meditate. Every day I try to get some exercise. The realistic part of that is probably five days a week. It’s harder when I’m traveling and on the road. Then kind of across the course of the month or the year, I both have a group of friends, female friends, that I try to walk with every Monday morning when we’re in town. And then I’m in two different non-denominational spiritual groups. One is about eight women. It’s been going on for over 20 years. One is started right before COVID and it’s six women. And again, we do readings and then we talk about what is alive for us or what we’re working on in terms of our spirit. So those are some of my practices. I’m curious, what are some of yours? 

RN: Yeah, you are very disciplined, Melinda. I know that about you and you work really hard at things. So, yes, wellbeing. Obviously it’s critical. I find that my needs and practices have changed over the decades. And now that I’m in my 60s, I feel like I need something different. So my first way of being well is to be with my grandson, but everybody should be so lucky to have a grandchild next to them. But apart from that, as soon as I can, I get out into nature. So, like you, when I wake up, I do some breathing exercises or some prayer or something like that to settle me before I get out of bed. But then my first thought is to go out on the balcony and listen to the birds because I’m a big birder. So the first thing I want to know is there some other bird calling? Who’s calling? Are my friends here out there in the sky on the trees? So that really helps to center me a lot. I love music. I like yoga like you. We like walking. We try to do exercise as much as we can. And we try to be disciplined at any rate. But I think of all the things I like what you said about having a circle of friends. I think women perhaps find it easier to have that circle of friends to whom you can make emotional contact and tell them what you’re feeling and hear from them too. But that’s been hugely important. And I think having them on a WhatsApp group has also helped, especially since the pandemic. So yeah, working on wellbeing seems to be critical. 

MFG: You know, there’s a great teacher who says that unless the inner work is large, the outer work can’t be large, right? If the inner work is small, the outer work stays small too. 

RN: I’m sure you’re familiar with this, but I had some statistics. The Wellbeing Project has been doing a lot of surveys among changemakers, 300 plus in 55 countries. And 75 percent of them said, yes, wellbeing was important, but only 25 percent felt able to do something about it. And that burnout, stress, anxiety, trauma seems to be part of the journey of changemakers. Because you and I are at least one degree or two degrees removed. People on the front lines dealing in war-like situations, in extreme poverty, disease. We are hearing that their substance abuse, anxiety, mental health issues are much higher than in any other sector. So which is why I think we need to think together. How are all of us who are in the donor community, in the social sector community, able to make a difference? How do you think, Melinda, we could work together, all of us, to do a little more to bring this issue more into the mainstream? It is more in the mainstream than it used to be, but any of your thoughts as to how we can highlight it more? So that even how philanthropy is done can change a little to support the social sector better. Do you think philanthropy is ready or we need to nudge it a bit? Or when will we, do you think we are more ready post-COVID?  

MFG: What you’re doing here with The Wellbeing Project is bringing it to light, and then yes, absolutely, philanthropy can keep some space to say, okay, we know this takes a little bit more overhead, but then what we see is that, like, a social worker will stay in their job longer, and there’s, there’s a huge benefit to that longevity. We can use our voice in the philanthropy sector, I think, to bring wellbeing up and to highlight it. And we’re hearing it discussed more and more around. The world at what I am seeing, particularly after COVID, is that the changemakers who were out there trying to help in the caregiving space or the teachers on the front lines or the nurses or the community health workers, they are just overwhelmed. I mean, they’ve helped to deal with that in their own family lives, let’s say COVID, and they’ve seen a lot of death in the community or near death, and they see traumatized families. So what they are experiencing is just enormous and it’s cumulative over time, right? So in one of the projects that I’ve worked on here at Pivotal Ventures, one of the things we made sure to do is one of the partners that we’re working with called the Highland Project. They’re trying to help women of color create financial intergenerational wealth But what we’ve realized with that partner and what they realize is they first had to take care of the wellbeing of their own staff. And so their own staff had to learn practices to take care of their own wellbeing, their own mental health, and their own financial wellbeing, so that then they could be out in the community, helping people on the ground have this intergenerational wealth. But you’re now having employers also say, wait a minute, if my employees aren’t well, or let’s say they’re dealing with an ageing parent who’s dying at home, they just can’t show up at work the same way. So how do we give them more wellbeing days or personal days off? And so I do think having this conversation, you know, helps us all recognize in society literally what we’re going through.

RN: Yeah, I’m so glad you mentioned the corporate sector as well, because definitely employee wellbeing and mental health are important key concerns that have come up, especially after covid. But do you think I can see how the corporate sector? Yes, they want to employ productivity. They obviously want their employees to be their fittest possible, happiest possible selves. Do you think philanthropy is ready? And how do we help make it more ready to say, yes, we talk about overheads or we talk about unrestricted funding, how can we keep a portion of that so that every organization we all support has a little space to create more wellbeing practices or whatever it needs? Maybe develop some processes, all of which take some resources so that they are also at their best to do what they want to do, which is help make social change. 

MFG: I will be honest. I don’t see the philanthropy sector doing it at large yet but the conversation has started. There are more conferences about wellbeing. I mean, how are you seeing it play out in India?  

RN: I think we are new at this. Even putting it on the table that it is such, we know that our frontline workers are under extreme stress, whether they’re in the social sector or government, medical workers, health workers, the ASHA workers, et cetera, it’s an extremely stressful situation. And I think sometimes while government has some good practices, I think it’s up to the philanthropy sector in India to now help start to develop some more tools to help those who have to face this. You know, come head-to-head with human distress every day and yet be detached enough to continue working. So I think there’s a lot of space from my philanthropy side, Melinda. One thing is I’ve begun very recently a new portfolio on mental health. I’ve put in about 13 million so far to two big national institutions that are working on five very prevalent mental health issues like schizophrenia, addiction, bipolar, etc. So, there’s long-term research going on there, which is very critical so that we can develop new, I hope, innovative therapies, or I don’t know what’s in store with that. But we’re also doing other grants in the sector which is important because it’s a huge issue in India. We’re also trying to understand what donor practices, just like you said, what are the best practices that help support our partner organizations to be at their most effective self. So we try at least to lead with trust and we try to give organizations space to change their practices or change based on what’s happening on the ground so that they’re not really locked into very hard defined ways of doing things. And we try to do some deep listening whenever we can. So I’m sure it’s the same with you. And I think that allows organizations a little more freedom and flexibility and takes the stress off of them. I must say sometimes donors can cause a lot of stress to partner organizations. So if donors were to say that we won’t be a source of stress at any rate, maybe it gives more space for peopl, especially leaders. You know, Melinda, I’ll keep this brief. We did a recent portfolio meet. And the leaders of these organizations were talking about how difficult it has become for them as leaders to constantly lead with confidence and without themselves scrambling under the increasingly complex issues, especially with climate and other things that we are facing now, climate anxiety is huge. I found among young people and young leaders. Any thoughts on that? 

MFG: Well, I would say the other thing that you haven’t mentioned just as a general thing that we can do as philanthropists. One of the things I’ve worked on with Pivotal Ventures is about six years ago, I decided I really wanted to look more at the adolescent mental health space because the numbers were not good in the United States. And one of the things we realized is that there was not a good body of knowledge about what was truly going on with adolescents and particularly around their digital usage, right? Because they get all these messages about climate change, about institutions not working for them, and they get all these messages from their friends that aren’t good. And so one of the things that we’ve done is added to the body of knowledge by creating a Center for Digital Thriving at Harvard, and what they’re doing is really surveying and talking to adolescents about where is social media helpful to you and where is it hurtful? We’ve had some pretty surprising results. For instance, adolescents are saying that it’s really hard for them because at night, if one of their friends, let’s say, is having suicidal ideation or feels like they’re on the brink, they feel like they need to stay awake and support them. So one of the things we’ve learned is then how do we give parents tools to support their own adolescents? And everybody can use that in the field, right? Whether you’re a philanthropist, whether you’re a changemaker on the front lines, you can say, I’m also supporting my adolescent son or daughter. Here’s what I know about helping them survive or thrive, actually digitally. So we’re doing that. That’s one space we work in. And another you can work in, which we’re doing again with Pivotal Ventures is really looking at the caregiving that’s going on. It’s going on in every country. Women carry the disparate burden of that, but really highlighting that issue and bringing the research forward to show. What is the double-edged sword that women face supporting elderly parents and the young and again, getting that in front of employers and helping employers realize how to connect employees to the right insurance policies and the right sort of days off. So that’s another thing philanthropy can do is, which is we can highlight issues and then create bodies of knowledge of research and then connect various industries.  

RN: Absolutely. So I hope it’s there on the Pivotal Ventures website, and I’m sure you’re putting out public documents that others can use for sure. And we shall continue. We will continue to do the same. As you know, Melinda for seven or eight years, our philanthropy has been working with young men and boys because we find that I mean, of course, you what you’re talking about women’s economic empowerment, their safety, the health is absolutely critical. And we are decades away from getting to any place that we are comfortable. But alongside, a lot is happening with young males around the world. Many of them are at extreme risk. There is enough data to show that whether it’s sexual abuse, whether it’s exposure to violence, young males sometimes have worse issues. When it comes to enrollment, and we’re finding this in many countries, that actually today, there are more girls enrolled in educational institutions than boys. So where does that leave boys in the future and young males? So I think we are working, and it creates a lot of anxiety especially in adolescent boys. And just today we were listening to stories about how ymales are getting confused. They don’t know whether to be happy that women are moving forward or whether to feel resentful and victimized by the advancement of women. Because when you get into that mental model of scarcity, then you’re not able to be generous about other groups moving forward. So I think some of these things, we all can share best practices and how do we relieve some of these anxieties and stresses, especially with young people around the world. And The Wellbeing Project actually does have a lot of work on this. Their annual summit is, I mean, it’s not annual, it’s every two years, but that brings together changemakers from around the world who talk about what they did to help not only their wellbeing, but the wellbeing of the constituencies they try to represent. And we really need much more of that sharing around the globe.  

MFG: Just add to what you said about men and boys. You’re the one that really affected me quite some time ago, it was maybe seven or eight years ago. You and I first had this conversation and I really just wasn’t looking at the issue at the time. And I realized I needed to broaden my lens because you’re exactly right. I mean,we don’t have great generative models, I think for talking to boys in society about, it’s not a pie that gets sliced, you know, half to the women, half to the men. It’s that we expand the pie. We expand the pie economically. We expand the pie of being able to live the life that you want to live, right? But if you end up with a segment of society that feels like they’re losing because women are gaining, that fear and that anxiety plays out in society and will often actually then play out in violence towards women.

RN: Right. 

MFG: And so instead so men and boys having these messages of here’s a great way, like here are three dozen archetypes of men that you can look up at and they are very generative leaders They support their daughters and their wives and their aunties. And, and they’re a great CEO or they’re a great founder of a company, but they need to see archetypes of who they can be in society, just like women and girls need to look up and see archetypes of great women and in society. Because I always say we have to be well to do well. So you have to feel good in terms of your wellbeing, but you also can’t be what you can’t see. And so I think we need to have a new conversation for men and boys about who they can be in society in an ever-expanding world, not a contracting world. 

RN: Exactly right. How can they be the best human selves without being weighed down by expectations from society and without having to take out their frustrations on the women around them, which has been unfortunately very sanctioned and normalized over the years. But things are changing. I heard so many positive stories from young males that our partners have been working with, and I feel very hopeful that our identities that split across so many, so many groupings in our heads that our human identities will be first and foremost, and that it will allow us to look at our own wellbeing and the wellbeing of all people in equal measure. 

MFG: One thing I want to just say, just because I’m not sure everybody knows it about you and Nandan, which is I’ve been in conversations with you all over time where we’re talking about very serious topics, right?  And I will watch you insert your voice because you have a different point of view from him because of what you see in society at times. And I have watched the two of you dispel that with humor. Right? Like he sees your point of view and you see his point of view. And I think sometimes we also don’t talk about, you know, humor is a way of releasing some tension, right? Or taking time out of life. I know the time, the two of you take some time for vacations, like to the extent we can take some time out away from our, Difficult change making work just to have time to reflect and to be and even to play right, I think is so important. 

RN: I think I’m so glad you brought up the point of humor.  You know, humor is very important. It’s almost like a muscle you have to develop because it keeps you humble, right? It keeps you from having too much certainty about your own beliefs. It allows you to break your ego once in a while, apart from allowing to laugh, which we all know releases endorphins and improves your wellbeing. So you’re absolutely right to bring in the humor. How can we keep our sense of humor alive even when times are very dark? So thank you for bringing up that point. It’s very, very critical. So as we come to a close of our time, Melinda, any last thoughts, any message you would have from your own life, how you went inside to strengthen yourself so that you could work outside? And what would you say for people who are just beginning to do that or just beginning to realize that? It’s not like a goal that, oh, I have to reach there in 10,000 steps or whatever. So how, what last advice would you have or what do you want to share?

MFG: I would say build a trusted group of friends that you can talk with when things are hard, when you’ve seen something different, difficult on the front lines, or you’re supporting someone in your family while you’re trying to create change. Have a trusted circle of friends that you can reach out to on WhatsApp or via a walk or on email. For me, that has really carried me through some very difficult times in life, either personally or when I’m doing the hard work out in the developing world. So find your trusted group of friends and nurture it. And the second thing I would say is have a gratitude practice. Every night, no matter where I am before a meal and whoever I’m with, even if they don’t want to, which would be my older adult children now sometimes, we go around the dinner table and we all say one thing we’re thankful for that day. And I just did it with my son and his friends who are 24 this weekend. And I did it again with my 21 year old daughter and her friends. You know, I kind of get the look like, are we really doing that mom? But I find that you’d be amazed what people say they’re grateful for and how it creates connection. And just in being grateful, it also releases some of the stress and tension.  

RN: I think that’s really beautiful because gratitude gives us so much strength to carry on. I used I’ve been saying of late that also cultivating hopefulness, not empty optimism, but hope almost as a religion, an article of faith, because when you have hope, then you have the energy for action. You can get up and do something because you have hope that some good outcome will come out of it. So I think hope when it is nurtured in the right way. Not in an empty way drives us to action and action when you’re doing something, there’s less space for you to ruminate and to be depressed. So keeping that hope, nurturing it or strengthening it, especially when things don’t seem to be going right, certainly has helped me at any rate and I hope it will help a million others in the world. So, I think I’ll close by saying thank you to The Wellbeing Project for thinking of getting us both together. It was a great pleasure to speak to you. You are a role model to many millions of women in the world because of how much you give of yourself. And I think by giving of ourself, we receive so much back and that is also part of the journey of wellbeing. So shall we end with a nod to the millions of changemakers around the world who need support, who need us to recognize that in their work, which they do on behalf of all of humanity, they need a little bit of a helping hand too. And if philanthropists like us could do a little more, I think there’d be that much more, well, wellbeing, of course, but also more opportunity and ways out of our crisis looking ahead, but I’m going to let you have the last word.

MFG: Yeah, so I would say my gratitude today and my thankfulness really is for the workers who do the really hard work on the front lines. I always say this in my own work that I don’t have the tough job. They have the tough job. They’re out working in communities and creating change and trying to help moms with a new baby and try to be a teacher of the young and set the right values. So I just have enormous gratitude for the men and women who work on the front lines. You’re doing the hard work. So I would say take care of yourselves. Be nice to yourselves and you are actually my heroes.  

RN: Thank you so much Melinda. Thanks for that message. And thank you for doing what you do. Let’s keep working together. Namaste. 

MFG: Namaste. Thanks Rohini.

Thank you for listening to this episode of At The Heart Of It. For more news, research, and stories about wellbeing and social change, visit wellbeing-project.org. The Wellbeing Project is the world’s leading organization advocating for the wellbeing of changemakers and for wellbeing in changemaking. We believe wellbeing inspires welldoing. Thanks for listening and see you next time.  

 

Wellbeing is Resilience: Bagoré BathilyWellbeing is Resilience: Bagoré Bathily

Stories from the Hearth

Interview With:

Bagoré Bathily

Director General, La Laiterie du Berger
🌍 Dakar, Senegal

In this interview, hear from Bagoré Bathily, the Director General of La Laiterie du Berger, a dairy brand in Senegal that is also the country’s first certified B Corporation. Hear how in his view, wellbeing is all about finding the beauty and resilience in one’s self to do incredible things. At the first regional wellbeing summit for social change in Senegal, Bagoré joined hundreds of changemakers to share his story building a business that benefits people and planet — as well as generate profit.

Watch the interview below.

EXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHEREXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHER

Dive Into Stories From Around the World

Discover the Wellbeing Movement in AfricaDiscover the Wellbeing Movement in Africa

Meet and hear stories from the changemakers championing the wellbeing movement in Africa.

Not a Goddess, Not a Little Woman: Poetry From Shamim AzadNot a Goddess, Not a Little Woman: Poetry From Shamim Azad

Stories from the Hearth

The Wellbeing Summit Dhaka Artistic Experience With:

Shamim Azad

Poet
🌍 London, England

British-born Bangladeshi poet, Shamim Azad, joined the first regional summit in Bangladesh in March 2024, bringing with her a beautiful poem to inaugurate the Summit, which also took place on International Women’s Day. Her new poem, entitled “Debi nohi… nohi shamanyo meye” (“Not a Goddess.. Not a Little Woman!”) shares a conversation between a mother and her daughter, providing an intergenerational reflection on feminism and gender roles in Bangladesh.

Shamim Azad is one of Bangladesh’s most prolific contemporary bilingual poets. In 2023, she wone the Bangla Academy Literary Award in the poetry category.

Watch the recording below.

EXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHEREXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHER

Dive Into Stories From Around the World

Discover the Wellbeing Movement in AsiaDiscover the Wellbeing Movement in Asia

Meet, hear stories, and learn from the changemakers championing the wellbeing movement in Asia.

AT THE HEART OF IT – EPISODE 4

DR. MALA KAPADIA

Healing With Indian Wisdom

Join us for this delightful and deep conversation with Dr. Mala Kapadia, Director of the Anaadi Foundation’s Center for Indigenous Knowledge Systems. In this insightful episode, Mala shares learnings from her life-long exploration of traditional wisdom and modern wellbeing practices. Discover how Mala’s work addresses intergenerational trauma and Ecological Belonging, promotes holistic healing and peacebuilding, and incorporates Indian sciences like Ayurveda and Yoga into contemporary Indian society.

After sharing more about this emerging research at the first regional Hearth Summit in India, and in our Higher Education Network, Mala invites to learn about the intersection of spirituality and science, and explore transformative practices that can help us achieve both personal and global wellbeing. Let’s get to the heart of it.

Let's dive right inLet's dive right in!

LISTEN TO EPISODE 4

And find us on  Spotify  |  Apple Podcasts  |  YouTube  |  Amazon Music

ResourcesResources

From This Episode

Full episode transcriptFull episode transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity

Welcome to At The Heart Of It, a podcast where we explore issues at the heart of our world’s biggest challenges and their solutions. We’re on a journey inward going into ourselves, reflecting on who we are, listening to humanity’s collective story. Our guides are the visionary leaders, activists, scholars, and practitioners who are changing the world and whose own inner journeys of wellbeing inspire their welldoing.

Today’s guest brings the heart of India’s traditional knowledge systems to the world of social change. Dr. Mala Kapadia is director of the Anaadi Center for Indigenous Knowledge Systems at the Anaadi Foundation located in south India, where she leads transdisciplinary research to connect with wellbeing sciences from India and around the world. 

She also holds a couple of other important titles, one of which is Principal Investigator for the Indian Ministry of Education’s Indian Knowledge Systems Research Project on happiness and wellbeing. Mala’s work allows her to take deep dives into the unique aspects of Indigenous traditions while finding connecting threads between different cultures and ways of viewing the world – particularly how intergenerational trauma impacts all of us, our cultures, and the planet, and how we can find healing in the wisdom of the past. This bird’s-eye view lends a special approach to her wellbeing and welldoing, and today she’s inviting us to see the world connect with each other and heal from this great height.  Let’s get to the heart of it.  

Madelaine VanDerHeyden (MV): All right. Well, hi, Mala. Welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here. I know we’re a little bit far away from each other these days. I’m in France and you’re in New Zealand. So it’s very late for me, very early for you. So thanks for calling me at this time. I thought we could get started just by you telling us a little bit about who you are and the work that you’re doing at Anaadi Foundation.

Dr. Mala Kapadia (MK):  Sure. I’m Dr. Mala Kapadia, and I work with Anaadi Foundation. It’s a non–governmental organization based in South India, and we do a lot of research and create curriculum based on Indian knowledge systems, my entire journey, Madelaine, has been through various fields from psychology to literature to human resources, Ayurveda, yoga. And I’m happy to now see all the dots and connect them in different areas of research as well as education.

MK: So, we work at multiple levels, we create curriculums, we offer them to different universities from schools to parents to corporates, higher education. We work with the Ministry of Education in India, where at the moment I’m working on a project on creating a wellbeing and happiness framework and index based on Ayurveda. So there is a lot of research  based on my wellbeing and happiness project. We have written a book, a small booklet called Sukha Sutra. These are wisdom on how to remain healthy and happy for school children. It was quite a challenge, right? Schooling for very young children so that the next generation can have more wellbeing and a healthier life. How do you give them the metacognition, metavalues, metaskills? Meta is an aerial view, right? It’s a heightened view, where we are able to connect all the dots and see the intricacies of all the paths. This is how we use the GPS system when we are driving because we don’t know what’s ahead. So, metacognition and metawareness help us understand how we and everything around us are connected. Not only that, but how the cosmos and us are made up of the same stuff. What happens outside happens inside, right? So that’s the first pillar for health and wellbeing. The second pillar that flows is of metavalues. Once I know who I am and how we all are interconnected, how the wellbeing of planet is connected with my wellbeing, that metacognition gives me meta values, and values become a foundation for our character and that foundation gives us skills. So those skills then can be applied in life to be in a state of wellbeing and happiness.   

MV: And so these knowledge systems from India, these different sciences, I know what they are, and that’s why we’re speaking today, but maybe our listeners don’t. So could you start by first sharing what is the Indian science of Ayurveda? 

MK: They describe Ayurveda as a manual of life skill. It’s not just a medicinal system. It’s veda, knowledge of ayu. Ayu is life. And the beauty of Ayurveda is that it is for everyone, so it’s not for Indian people. It’s not for the people from certain regions. But the sages talked about humanity at large. They say that our life has purpose and meaningfulness and to achieve that, there are paths. So the path begins with dharma, so anything that sustains you and holds you together, is dharma. And I felt it’s a beautiful way to look at our life. It’s only psychology has taken more than 200 years to reach positive psychology where Martin Seligman and others are talking about meaningfulness. And here there are sages many, many millennia ago who wrote about how life has to be meaningful for us to be healthy and happy. And then they describe life as hitha, beneficial to self and others, because they always saw life as a continuum. We and the cosmos, we and everyone else, are interconnected. And only when we are leading a life which is interconnected and integral can we be happy. And happiness is, not the pursuit of happiness that we understand today in a modern language, but it’s all about the state of being. It is called sukha in Sanskrit. Su is auspicious, Kha is space. So how do you create beautiful, auspicious space where you live, whether it’s your body, whether it is your mind, whether it’s the community, whether it’s the nation or whether it’s the world? So with all the wellbeing crises that we see today, I realize that Ayurveda beautifully connects the wellbeing of the planet and wellbeing of an individual. It’s a continuum. In Ayurveda, in Yoga, the continuum is very beautifully described. So when I go back to Yoga and Ayurveda as ancient sciences as I said, if we all are integrated, we all are connected, then my energy and the world’s energy are somewhere merging together. And energy as we all know cannot be created or destroyed. It needs to be transformed. So when we look at trauma, what is it impacting? Is it impacting your security? Is it impacting your relationships? Is it about your power or victimhood? Is it about your heart experiencing gratitude or is it about your heart experiencing a closed xenophobic existence where you switch on to a survivalistic mode? Now this is where Yoga and Ayurveda come into play because they have a lot of practices which can help you dissolve these traumatic emotional imprints without wanting to bring them up to the brain, which is not able to cope. And when I say Yoga, it’s not just exercise or breathing exercise or physical postures, right? Because Yoga, Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra, one of the oldest text of collations of yoga sutras, talks of Yama and Niyama, which are the behavioral codes at individual level and collective level. So unless we practice them, doing breathing exercises and doing postures, will not give us results. 

MV: And in your opinion, Mala. Do you think that with the curriculum that you’re developing, the books that you’re writing, for example, is it filling a need there? Because, I’m just going to suggest some things, and you can tell me if I’m completely wrong, but is the need there because you think that there needs to be more awareness around wellbeing or more connection back with India knowledge systems? A mix of both? Am I getting it completely wrong? Why do you think this work is needed?

MK: You’re absolutely, you’re absolutely right. It’s both right. One, it needs awareness. I mean, unfortunately, in any colonized country, the country and people take very long time to come out of the colonized mindset. And therefore, in India, unfortunately, there was nothing Indian in our education system. When I studied psychology, I was horrified because all of our textbooks were either American or Europe-centric. You know, there was nothing Indian. All the  philosophy is totally missing from the curriculum.  The same with economics, the same with political science, the humanities. So that’s where we realize bringing back the Indian knowledge system, which is not India as a geopolitical boundary, but India as a civilization, ancient wisdom needs to be revived, revisited, and integrated wherever possible. 

MV: Well, I’ll just, I’ll just say just on the topic of post-colonial impact, or ongoing colonial impact, and then bringing in the topic of intergenerational trauma: do you see a trauma response in this dynamic? You know, what is the impact of trauma in educational systems as it relates to needing to bring in more of a strong presence of Indian knowledge systems because they’re not there? Are those two related? Not so much? What do you think? 

MK: Absolutely related because I realize that, let’s say when we say trauma, what is a trauma, right? Trauma is a wound that we carry within ourselves which is not healing. And it’s like, maybe you have a large house and you have forgotten your air conditioning or you have forgotten your tap, which is leaking water in an attic or a basement. And for many, many years you don’t realize why your electricity bill or the water bill is so high. But it’s taking a toll on you. So unless you dive deep, unless you visit all the rooms in your large mansion to locate the problem and fix it, the same way trauma is something that I think all of us carry within us. It could be due to colonization. It could be due to climate change. It could be due to wars. Nowadays we also talk of climate refugees, so it could be due to displacement because of war or climate change. Everything that is happening in the world is impacting us. Quantum science calls it the butterfly effect, right? That even far away in time, if a butterfly flutters  it’s impacting everything else around. Because all of us are energetically connected. Now, unfortunately, as I gave the example of electricity or leakage in water,  the same thing happens to trauma. We have it at a cellular level. However, we are not even aware of it. So what happens? It becomes our frame of reference when rather than respond, we are just reacting to life out of that trauma. So let’s say one of the impacts of colonization as a trauma that I’ve seen in India at least is that anything Indian does not hold value. Anything which comes from the West or is stamped by the West holds value. So if Yoga gets stamped by the West, then we say, “Oh, wow, Yoga is our legacy.” But you’re not ready to own your culture or civilization, right? And that trauma has impacted people going through low self-esteem about who they are and they’ve lost their voice. I mean, I’m here in New Zealand, and unfortunately, I’m seeing the same thing happen to Māori culture here. The way we know of or the way we talk of Māori culture, the values, the wellbeing that it can bring to the world and humanity: you do not really see that integrated in education, workplaces, or their way of living. So, that then becomes colonization, becomes an intergenerational trauma, because I’m carrying my ancestors in my blood, right? I’m carrying my ancestors in my genes. And whether I’m aware of it or not, I’m carrying that in my psyche as an imprint. And that imprint has to be brought to an awareness level to be able to address it. And then there has to be action. It’s not a cognitive thing. It’s a very emotional and experiential thing. So I cannot talk about it in a cognitive way and say, “Okay, I’m free of my trauma.” The trauma has to be dissolved  and therefore, a lot of transdisciplinary interconnections have to be made.  So we look at ancient wisdom, we look at modern sciences, we bring them together, and then we create practices, everyday life practices that help us become aware of our trauma and address them. 

MV: So I’m glad that you’ve brought up this work with the Māori because as you’re doing transdisciplinary research, you’re not only looking at building bridges between ancient, traditional knowledge and modern knowledge. But you’re also looking at cross-cultural knowledge. Different communities and different cultures and the threads in between them. So looking at the similarities and differences – between what’s ancient and what’s modern and what’s from India and what’s from elsewhere – and then talking about practices – practices for healing, but also practices as in rituals, everyday life practices – what do you see is happening in India right now? Do you think that in contemporary Indian society there’s a strong understanding and embrace of how traditional sciences from India, like Ayurveda and Yoga can help with wellbeing?

MK: We talk of ancient or Indigenous wisdom at one you know, one level. And then we say this is modern, right? And a lot of people have this misconception that ancient is outdated. People think modern is more scientific, modern is the complete know-how. Unfortunately, or fortunately, we realize that what is ancient is being rediscovered by many modern theorists. So it’s, we as humanity, we just have to take a U-turn, go back to our own cultural roots, civilizational roots. And I realize that all, most of the Indigenous cultures, they were connected and rooted in nature. I’ve been to Hawai’i. I’ve met some of the kahunas, the wisdom holders. And one of the ladies, I still remember, she held my hands and she said, “You are one of us.” And I realized that she felt that and I felt that because of the Mother Earth. We could have lived in different lifetimes. We could have lived on different geographical locations, but ultimately it’s all one. In all ancient Indigenous cultures, they’re also connected with their ancestors, because all of us are living biographies, right? And our biographies become our biology. So our history, our ancestors, are living within us, not just genetically, but psychologically and spiritually. Ancestor healing is a major ritual in most of the Indigenous cultures, including India. Now, obviously, we really don’t know what our ancestors were going through, right? Beyond a certain generation, we don’t even know our ancestors. We don’t know what trauma they went through. But whatever their trauma, we have inherited it.  Also, the trauma of Mother Earth, right, I mean, when we are saying climate change, climate refugee, what is happening to Mother Earth is impacting us. That’s also an ancestral trauma. So in reality, no, I think India is not doing great on wellbeing at many levels because, you know, the American fast food and industrial revolution, colonization, everything has impacted Indians. You know, India had global universities once upon a time. And today when I look at the youth, their only aspiration to get an admission in an American university, right? So, what is happening at physical level, your lifestyle is compromised, you are not actually living Yoga and Ayurveda in your everyday life. This is where I would love to quote one of my favorite authors from America, Henry Thoreau. And Henry Thoreau had his brother die at a very young age in his own arms. It was very traumatic for him. And that’s where he left the New York or Boston, wherever he lived, and he went to Walden Lake. He built his own house and he stayed there. So this can be one of the practices of reconnecting with nature, questioning the life that we are living at an autopilot mode. And Henry Thoreau said that we are living very fast rather than deep, and in India, I realized that the ideal could be that India becomes the voice for humanity, where, you know, you see the vibrancy of people practicing Ayurveda, practicing Yoga, living their civilizational, cultural values, which is slowly happening, it is slowly happening. I was in North India and I was at a place called Sonipat, which was originally in ancient time called Svarnaprastha, a city made of gold. And I realized that people there are actually living a much healthier life because they are all staying as a joint family. I could see actually two or three, even four generations living together in the same house, which is very rare today, even in India. But that kind of community support… let’s take a simple example of a childbirth. Today, mothers are left alone to fend for their pregnancy days and post delivery days, but imagine when you had a whole community or your entire extended family supporting you in your pregnancy and childbirth. That trauma of childbirth would have got so much reduced when there was support system. So, I was look at India as actually start reliving their own ideal ways of life. Where a lot of community support, a lot of extended families staying together, where the practice of Ayurveda and Yoga was a household thing, where grandmother’s wisdom was the first thing where you went, you know, whether it was your physical discomfort or you needed psychological help, so nothing became a trauma.  It was resolved. It was identified by somebody in the family who had the wisdom, and it was resolved. So today we have coaches, we have mentors, we have psychologists, we have counselors, we have nutrition experts, we have life coaches. In those days in India, your grandmothers held those roles all in one. So, you know, realistically, unfortunately, not every family in India is an extended family, but I would want to really see this coming back all over the world.  

MV: And that’s so nice, that’s such a nice image. And as you were saying, the grandmother would hold all of those roles. And it just makes me think, like women can do everything can’t they!

MK: They do! They do! And honestly, because I’ve been really thinking, you know, prior to the Industrial Revolution, women held different roles. It has nothing to do with gender, but it’s feminine energy, it’s masculine energy, right? So the role of feminine energy was to nurture,  sustain, hold everything together, I was just discussing this with my son that at one level, I’m happy women are having more confidence when they are getting education, getting roles, doing jobs, having successful careers. However, what they don’t realize is that they are actually suppressing their feminine energy. You know, becoming competitive, wanting to be better than a man. I’ve been an active human resource roles and corporates, a lot of senior leadership coaching, developing leaders. And I realize that we are bringing back all feminine energy. Like compassion, empathy, listening. But, we want women to be competitive, we want cutthroat competition. I mean, look at the language. It itself is very traumatic, right? So, yes, we are creating trauma. I think the Industrial Revolution uprooted people from nature. So, nature become a resource to be used and exploited and people became resource that needs to be used and exploited and we didn’t realize that we ourselves became a resource which was exploited by others and we are exploiting others. And this trauma, I think, needs to be addressed because today corporates have to wake up to the spiritual aspect, which is not a philosophical aspect, but I would say spirituality is a basic foundation. And most of the United Nations Sustainability Development Goals are far away from being met. Right. I mean, when we are spending so much money on sustainability goals, climate change, et cetera, what we don’t realize is, we just need to bring back that foundation of spirituality in everything we do. And the moment that foundation comes back, everything will fall in its place. Right now, we have lost the bigger picture and we are all struggling with pieces of puzzles, and trying to fit them here and there. But spirituality is like a bigger picture. And without looking at that bigger picture, we are not able to fit in those pieces of puzzles. 

MV: Well, Mala, we’ve spoken a lot about your views on the work that you’re doing, the different sciences that you’re exploring and connecting across cultures. And that does tell us a little bit about who you are, but we haven’t really gotten to the heart of it. And I’m wondering if we can share a little bit more about you and maybe there’s some personal anecdotes you can tell us about that brings this work to life in your own life. Is there anything you’d like to share with us?    

MK: I can share one of my own personal experiences here. One of my friends was doing a course on craniosacral  therapy. As a part of her course, she had to work on people and heal them and make a case study. So I was one of the guinea pigs for that study. And the first question she asked you know, apart from a lot of other questions, is what is a basic emotion that I feel that I experience very often? Without much thinking, because I knew what I was experiencing, I said sadness. And it has nothing much to do with my personal life or personal trauma. But overall, why is the world like this? Why are people behaving like this? Why are systems like this? Why are societies like this? Right? And that sadness was very heavy on my heart. So this is what I told her. And craniosacral is an energy healing when the healer does not even touch you, but just holds the space for you. And in that space the energy transfer happens and a lot of your own emotions get transformed and channeled. Only in three sittings, I realized that, Oh my God, my sadness had got transformed. Now, if I again use Sanskrit words from Natya Shastra, sadness is called Karunarasa.  Karuna is sadness in Sanskrit, but Karuna is also compassion or empathy. So, you know, it’s so beautiful that your sadness can actually become an activation of compassion if it gets transformed. Another experience that I’ve personally had is that, one of my friends gave me feedback in college that I kept on nodding my head, you know, I was like a doll when you touch the head and the doll goes like this [like a bobblehead]. There was something, some problem in my neck. And I said, Oh, am I doing that? I’m not even aware. So see, most of our even behavioral gestures, we are not aware. And then whenever I was becoming aware that I’m nodding too much, I would become stiff and my neck would have a lot of pain. So I would give up controlling and I would let my head go wherever it’s going. Now, much later in life, I was going through NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming Training, and Mick Lawrence, who had come from UK for the program, he asked in one of the sessions on hypnosis if anybody wanted to get rid of a bad habit. I was the first one to jump, saying that I want to stop nodding my head. Now it was, you know, if you look at it very superficially, it’s a very innocent gesture, right? I’ll share in a while how deeply it was connected with my trauma in childhood, of which I didn’t even have a cognitive awareness. So, he brought me on stage, hypnotized me, calmed me, took me back in time. And there I was, way back in second standard, maybe six years young, seven years young, learning dancing. And in Indian dancing, you need to learn to do this neck movement. Somehow I wasn’t able to do it properly. And my teacher scolded me. Now, she was one of my favorite teachers. And imagine being scolded by her in front of others, right? It created so much shame and guilt and sadness  that, it got stored in my neck because it was a neck movement. And then even when I was not dancing, it kept on nodding my head. And trust me, Madelaine cognitively, I didn’t even remember this incident. It was only through a very calm and relaxed hypnosis that this memory came into awareness. And the moment it came into awareness, it dissolved. And people who are part of that NLP program could see a change in me from the next day. Now, two, three things happened. You know, in my life being an elder daughter, I’ve always been the good one, right? The obedient one who loves to get validated by parents all the time, who’s supposed to be a good role model for a younger sister. So I was always very obedient. Also, I was non-assertive because when you’re obedient, you’re also non-assertive. I continued being non-assertive even in my marriage and in my role as a manager in my organization. So obviously everyone was very happy dumping work on me or making me do things that I never wanted to do. But before I say no to anything, become assertive or have my voice, my head was nodding yes. Thanks. You know, so people took me for granted and I could never understand. So that frustration, I got feedback from my bosses and my organization, you are a manager, you need to be assertive.  But it’s again, it’s not a cognitive skill. And what happened after this one  NLP session, the moment my body stopped giving this traumatic response, I suddenly became assertive. It was like magic. 

MV: You leave one day and you come back a completely transformed person!

MK: And I joke that obviously my husband and my bosses were very unhappy because – 

MV: Now you’re an assertive person! 

MK: Yes!

MV: But I mean, I’m laughing because it’s a charming story, but it speaks to, one, how deeply stored all of this is. Like, did you even remember, before this, did you even remember what had happened to you in, in second year? 

MK: No, no.

MV: Exactly. You don’t remember, and then the physical sensation you feel, the before and after, is so strong that there’s, you don’t need any other evidence to know that it was there. You know, it’s so clear. Yeah. Wow. Wow. 

MK: And this is where I feel that, you know, we have to have the holistic practices, right? I mean, for dealing with trauma. And we don’t even know what trauma we are holding.

MV: I feel like your common, your common theme for the conversation today has been, the cognitive is not enough. Stop thinking that the cognitive is enough. Like, get out of your brain, get out of your mind.

MK: That’s, that’s the essence, honestly, because we are not just limited to our brains, right? The brain is just a very tiny part of who we are.

MV: Well, my final question for you today, Mala is related to our motto at The Wellbeing Project, which is wellbeing inspires welldoing. And today you’ve shared about the wellbeing side of things, what that concept looks like in the form of Indian knowledge sciences, like Ayurveda, like Yoga,  and coming to the topic of social change: how do you think that the knowledge that these systems share with us? How do you think they can help us with our welldoing? And that could be for, You know, individual changemakers, it could be for collective humanity, it could be for the planet.  What is the connection there? And if this is your final message to our listeners, what would you like to share with them as we wrap up our conversation?

MK: We all are born out of peace and ultimately we all go, we rest in peace as we say when somebody leaves the body. But unfortunately, we don’t live in peace, right? Because we don’t give peace a priority. Peace and spirituality, peace and heart, everything gets connected, right? Because if these are the permanent emotions we are born with, so the negative ones like anger or disgust or fear or shame, they need to be transformed, right? We are born with them and they need to be worked on and through certain practices, we need to transform them. I was talking about rituals in India, we always, you know, all the prayers ended with saying, Shanti hi, Shanti hi, Shanti hi. Shanti means peace. And in India, every mantra also, or the prayer, begins with chanting Om. If I say aloud Om, Om is creating a vibration within me and outside. So why do all prayers end with saying peace, peace, peace three times? Just one time could have been enough. Then I read a very small booklet which says that the three Ps are invoking peace at three levels: one, individual, myself; two, collective, which is community around me, society, nature around me, my nation; and three is at the global level and universal level. So now when today there are wars happening, when there is so much destruction happening, there is so much human suffering, I realize that working on peace and giving it a priority is very important. So when I started my research, I realized that, unfortunately, most of the Western researches define peace as absence of war or conflict.  Peace is not seen as a positive construct in itself, which in Indian literature, in Indian philosophy, peace is a positive construct. Health is a positive construct. Health is not as opposed to disease. And peace is not opposed to war or conflict. So, if peace is a construct in itself, how do you arrive at it? How do you actually start experiencing peace within? And chanting mantras, I realized was one way. We have to become calm enough to invite peace. And the moment we start inviting peace by saying Shanti hi, Shanti hi, Shanti hi – or you can use a word in your language, your mother tongue – the moment you start experiencing that, giving that a priority, slowly your life begins. Peace is something that we have to focus as an individual and collectively. And when we vibrate at a higher energy  or frequency, it compensates for thousands of people around us. So let’s say if we include this as a part of leadership training, that leader of the organization or leader of a team, let’s say if we train teachers to vibrate right at this level, and if we naturally train our national leaders, international leaders, right, to be vibrating at a certain level, I’m sure humanity will have a greater, much better future. We’ll be more into the wellbeing zone rather than the disease zone, trauma zone. And I think that’s the legacy, if I can leave behind all the threads of, you know researchers from ancient modern, west and east, everything coming together, along with frameworks and practices. I think that’s the legacy I would love to leave behind. 

MV: And it’s such a beautiful legacy at that Mala and perfectly, I think, resonates with the work that we’re doing around ecological belonging and revitalizing and reweaving and bringing in, reconnecting to traditions and knowledge and wisdom from the past. So, thank you so much for allowing us to take a deep, deep dive with you into the world of these beautiful traditional sciences. And for sharing a little bit more about you and the heart of the research and the work that you’re doing. And that’s all the time we have for today, so thank you so much for joining me. 

MK: And to you personally and to The Wellbeing Project because I think they are doing wonderful work. I was in Spain at The Wellbeing Project’s first global summit in Bilbao. And it was an amazing community to stay connected with. I’m connected with some of them even today. 

MV: Oh, that’s so great, Mala. Yes, the community from our first global summit in Bilbao was just fantastic. Well, thank you so much. And we’ll talk to you very soon.

Thank you for listening to this episode of At The Heart Of It. For more news, research, and stories about wellbeing and social change, visit wellbeing-project.org. The Wellbeing Project is the world’s leading organization advocating for the wellbeing of changemakers and for wellbeing in changemaking. We believe wellbeing inspires welldoing. Thanks for listening and see you next time.  

An Emerging Movement for Wellbeing in Bangladesh: Abdallah Naeefy An Emerging Movement for Wellbeing in Bangladesh: Abdallah Naeefy

Stories from the Hearth

Interview With:

Abdallah Naeefy

Country Director, Porticus Bangladesh
🌍 Dhaka, Bangladesh

In this interview, join Abdallah Naeefy from Porticus Bangladesh as he discusses the importance of wellbeing, starting from inner vulnerability and strength to ecological awareness. Based in Dhaka, where the first regional summit in Asia was hosted in March 2024, Naeefy emphasizes the need for collective efforts to harmonize with our environment and society. He highlights the significance of regional collaboration and expresses his optimism about uniting various initiatives across Bangladesh for a better future.

Watch the interview below.

EXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHEREXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHER

Dive Into Stories From Around the World

Discover the Wellbeing Movement in AsiaDiscover the Wellbeing Movement in Asia

Meet, hear stories, and learn from the changemakers championing the wellbeing movement in Asia.

Women’s Wellbeing Will Take Society Forward: Tabassum Amina Women’s Wellbeing Will Take Society Forward: Tabassum Amina

Stories from the Hearth

Interview With:

Tabassum Amina

Assistant Professor and Lead of Mental Health Team, BRAC Institute of
Educational Development
🌍 Dhaka, Bangladesh

In this interview, meet Tabassum Amina, from BRAC Institute of Educational Development at BRAC University. Speaking on International Women’s Day at the first Asian regional wellbeing summit, held in Dhaka, Bangladesh, in March 2024, she shared the importance of caring for women’s wellbeing and nurturing wellbeing in culturally relevant ways.

Watch the interview below.

EXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHEREXPLORE THE REGIONAL SUMMITS FURTHER

Dive Into Stories From Around the World

Discover the Wellbeing Movement in AsiaDiscover the Wellbeing Movement in Asia

Meet, hear stories, and learn from the changemakers championing the wellbeing movement in Asia.

Let Wellbeing Inspire Welldoing: Rohini Nilekani at Hearth Summit Bangalore Let Wellbeing Inspire Welldoing: Rohini Nilekani at Hearth Summit Bangalore

Stories from the Hearth

Hearth Summit Bangalore Session With:

Rohini Nilekani

Chairperson, Rohini Nilekani Philanthropies
🌍 Bangalore, India

At Hearth Summit Bangalore — the first regional summit for wellbeing and social change in India — Rohini Nilekani, Chairperson of Rohini Nilekani Philanthropies, underscored the vital power wellbeing has to drive postive social and sustainable change.

In her keynote, she shared the importance of building robust support systems for changemakers, social sector professionals and leaders committed to betterment of their communities. She articulated the progression from empathy to action, distinguishing empathy as the understanding of others’ suffering and compassion as a vital next step that enables purposeful and impactful action.

Concluding her keynote address, Rohini urged individuals to prioritize wellbeing — beginning with themselves, extending to their organizations, and ultimately fostering it within their communities. Her message emphasized how the social sector can cultivate hope through strengthening changemakers’ wellbeing — because wellbeing inspires welldoing.

Watch Rohini’s keynote address below.

Transcript

00:00:00 Rohini Nilekani: Ellarigu namaskara…everybody doing well? Good. So, I know it’s been a wonderful two days. I know you’ve had all kinds of workshops, a lot of breathing, a lot of singing, a lot of sharing. And first let’s just call out the Wellbeing Project and everybody who participated to make the Hearth Summit so great.

[applause]

00:00:29 Rohini Nilekani: Thank you all. It’s very important. I’m very proud to be part of The Wellbeing Project, on its advisory board. It’s a global institution funded by several donors – with a single purpose of understanding that changemakers, social sector leaders and those who work to leave society better than where they found it – themselves need some support and help. And I think it’s really time to shine that spotlight because all the surveys that I have seen where social leaders and people working in those nonprofits around the world or even frontline workers, whether it is nurses, doctors, teachers, the levels of stress that they admit to are really off the charts more than in the corporate sector, more than in any other sector because it’s not been a topic that’s been brought into the sunlight for too long.

00:01:32 Rohini Nilekani: So I’m very glad that that is finally out in the open. Many organizations are now talking about it around the world and I think it’s part of a movement for all of us understanding and creating tools to manage stress when we are working at the frontlines of social change. So, I’m very happy to be part of this and to see the response of the Hearth Summits all over the world where people are themselves coming to curate, themselves coming together to find safe spaces to share, to feel safe and brave enough to talk about what is bothering them, to open up without having any fear of being rejected or misunderstood.

0:02:17 Rohini Nilekani: So, first of all, I’m so happy that this space is there. I was just in a workshop on competition and we were able to talk through our fears of competition, through our hope that the social sector will also learn to see that competition exists and not to have so much aversion to some things which are real but not necessarily so much part of our world. So, I’ve come to say, we all hear you, those of us…the donor space is opening up to this all over the world which is very important where donors are beginning to understand that unless the people of the organizations that we are funding are themselves not well, how do you expect them to look after the wellbeing of society? So, you will hopefully see more of that but you also need to bring better ideas to donors on exactly how do you present the idea of supporting wellbeing. So, it’s beginning the movement. I hope more ideas will come out, more, I hate to use this word but that’s how the real world operates, more investable opportunities for the wellbeing of social sector professionals and that should be a continuing journey.

00:03:31 Rohini Nilekani: So, I’m here to talk of the way I am seeing the world. I think one thing most people have realized is that to do the outer work, you have to do the inner work ’cause otherwise you’re going to hit a wall, you’re going to hit your own wall, you are going to become the limitation to the ambition of working for society. So, I’m sure you’ve had many of these discussions. I’m not going to give you advice but two things I will say. One is, I think we need a global movement for body intelligence and what I mean by that is, this thing is actually the only thing that you come with and go with in the whole world but so little we know about our body.

00:04:14 Rohini Nilekani: No, I’m not talking about my clothes, I’m talking about my body. That’s what you’re born with, that’s what you’re going to die with and yet too many people don’t understand how it functions. There is enough medical knowledge to now even know what to do to make your brain function better but we haven’t…we talk about all kinds of intelligences but not enough about body intelligence because rooted as we are in our body, and the self is the body, the brain is in the body, the more we learn about our body, the more we can first of all be kinder to it, which I’m still learning to do, and we can also use its miracle.

00:04:52 Rohini Nilekani: The human body is an absolute miracle. Use this miracle to help us to be more stable, more calm, more efficient. And also to understand things like, that’s very much there in the Buddhist literature, the difference between what all of us feel, that’s why we have chosen to be in the social sector, all of us feel empathy. You all feel empathy? Raise your hands, those who think you feel great empathy. Yes, exactly, all of us feel a lot of empathy but we also know that empathy by itself is not enough.

00:05:29 Rohini Nilekani: Sometimes empathy can take you in the wrong direction because you can feel pain too sharply, you can feel other people’s pain too sharply, you see yourself in that sufferer’s shoes and sometimes that makes you less able to act. So the difference I think between empathy and compassion is – empathy is a starting point. Empathy helps you to understand the suffering of others but then you need between empathy and action, you need compassion which is a little bit of detachment from empathy. You need to step back a bit so that you can show compassion through action to actually be able to help.

00:06:07 Rohini Nilekani: You know in the old days when I used to go and be in many situations of extreme poverty, whether it was Bihar or Bengaluru, in every part of the country when I started, there was poverty. Now in South India, you don’t see so much poverty and in fact in much of India. But I used to literally come back shattered, I didn’t know what to do and I didn’t know how to care for myself when I came back from those field trips.

00:06:33 Rohini Nilekani: And I think I developed very poor coping mechanisms and I’d get short-tempered or angry with other people who have nothing to do with the cause of that problem. And it took me a long time to realize this difference which I’m sharing with you because if you want to be efficient caregivers of society, then you know that we all have to learn better to care for ourselves. And so just keep reading on what I just said, even I’ve just started reading about the difference between empathy and compassion. Let’s develop our compassion better so that we can act and not get drowned in our empathy which we seem to have a natural talent for.

00:07:15 Rohini Nilekani: The second thing I want to talk about is hope. I’ve been saying this everywhere, that sometimes and I think young people are showing this with very high incidence of mental stress, depression, anxiety, fears, insecurities, especially the one billion young males of the world who are at extreme risk because the world has changed so much especially for men in the last 50 years. I think there is a sense of deep anxiety and it always shows up in the politics developing around us. I think though that it is very important, especially for all of us.

First, of course, you have to learn in your own way to care for yourselves and The Wellbeing Project has a lot of tools, suggestions, frameworks that are being put out. But secondly, can we make hope the new religion? This is a religion which does not divide. It can only unite. And when I say hope, keep the faith in hope, I don’t mean it as some kind of false optimism or even some very false cheerfulness or anything or even a false cynicism, to counter a false cynicism. That’s not what hope is.

Hope is the energy, the fuel inside you that gives you every morning the energy to do right action. It gives you the humility to know that no matter what things are going wrong, even the smallest action, we can’t understand the consequences. Whichever right action you can do with your conscience, with your heart, it will eventually go into a pool, a sea of right actions by others.

00:09:01 Rohini Nilekani: We can’t 100% say what the outcome will be but doing that right action with hope is always going to save you from hopelessness, is going to save you from the dark of despair. So if we can keep hope as the new religion and develop the faithful around it to support each other, as we see darkness emerge and as we see things going wrong, there is injustice in the world. Our job is to put out a little more justice wherever we can. There is going to be darkness in the world. Our job is to light a few lamps.

00:09:38 Rohini Nilekani: That brings me to my third point, which is I have been seeing, yes, I have known thousands of people and hundreds of organizations in the social sector, first as a journalist and then myself as a social entrepreneur and then as a philanthropist. I have met the most marvelous people in the world in all these organizations. Many of my mentors are leaders of organizations that have created real positive change. But sometimes I think looking at the world today, looking at what’s going on, I want us all to also think about, yes, we want to light lights in the darkness and we should.

0:10:21 Rohini Nilekani: Nowadays I wonder, maybe we need to look at the quality of light that we are putting out. Is it the bright lights of the urban city where even owls can’t nest at night? Is it what is called light pollution, where the real light of the stars is not allowed to filter through? Is that the kind of light we are creating when we are trying to create light? Not intentionally, but unintentionally. Maybe we need to think a little about this.

And what I mean by light pollution, we all do work with right intent, but sometimes we don’t have the right grammar of our intent to take the power of our intent forward to the right place. So how can we together do that more consciously? Because otherwise to me light pollution is all the polarization that we see in the world.

00:11:15 Rohini Nilekani: Light pollution from the social sector may be that despite our desire for justice, equity, fairness, opportunity, etcetera, are we also by mistake, contributing to judging the other side too harshly and therefore breaking the pathways to bridging the gaps between all of us. That’s what I am, and I won’t elaborate on all the other pollution, but maybe you all can start thinking about it. What kind of light do we want to put out in the world? Because if we put out the wrong light, the polluter also is affected by the pollution as much as those who are affected by the polluter’s pollution.

00:12:00 Rohini Nilekani: So maybe we ourselves, because we are talking about our own wellbeing, maybe if we are putting out the wrong quality of light, it is too harsh back on us. Every time in my life when I have judgingly pointed out a finger at everybody and I get angry easily, so I do that a lot. I’m trying to be smarter at 65. By the time I’m 65 in my next life, 100% I’ll have got there. But I always find three fingers pointing back at me and I have to stop and say, that’s not what I want to do. I don’t want to create a chasm between me and another person, another idea, another institution, another thought. I want to create a bridge. And my world, how I hold myself, is going to make the difference between whether it’s going to be a bridge or it’s going to be a broken down highway.

00:12:51 Rohini Nilekani: So let’s think carefully about the light that we spread. Because the real light possibly we want to see is the light coming from the stars above. Please do look after yourselves. Look after the people in your organizations. Create small spaces to talk about this light that we all try to light. And let wellbeing become a cornerstone. Every time you discuss budgets for the year, talk about your plan for wellbeing for the year. Let’s make this a global movement for changemakers to first be well so that they can take care of the wellbeing of the Samaaj.

Wonderful. So now that all of you have been part of this summit, you’re all now certified to take the idea of wellbeing forward in your organizations, first for yourself, in your organizations, and then into the community. Let’s keep the flag flying. Let’s keep the gentle light burning. And, also never forget that we can retreat into nature to give ourselves the most solace. It doesn’t matter if you live in an urban slum. At least in India, there will be one bird and one tree, definitely a few cockroaches, ants and spiders. They are also part of nature. We can learn a lot from them. So let’s find in this ancient country of ancient stories, let’s each find our own story to tie to so that we can weave a web of stories and connections for everyone to work on their own wellbeing.

Dhanyavad. Namaste. Thank you very much.

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The Cultural and Ecological Treasures of the BassariThe Cultural and Ecological Treasures of the Bassari

Stories from the Hearth

Ritual Alchemist Experience With:

Antoine Boubane

Artist, Bassari Culture Ambassador, and Arts Curator for Hearth Summit Thiès
🌍 Dakar, Senegal

The Bassari, a community living in eastern Senegal and northern Guinea Conakry, face significant challenges related to environmental degradation, climate change and the erosion of their cultural heritage. Defining themselves as the “Guardians of the Earth”, their way of life, which is intimately linked to nature, is now under threat.

As farmers and descendants of hunters, the Bassari consider themselves an integral part of nature; responsible for the defense and protection of the environment on which they depend. They adopt a lifestyle that is quite respectful of nature from a young age and strive to transmit this ecological wisdom from generation to generation.

In this documentary film, emphasis is placed on the deep relationship between the Bassari community and their natural environment as a source of resilience and wellbeing. Ritual Alchemist Antoine Boubane (Black Keme) brought the treasures of the Bassari to Hearth Summit Thiès, sharing lessons from his community’s sacred relationship with nature.

Across the Hearth Summits, communities of changemakers are embracing their local cultures, revitalizing traditions and rituals, and reconnecting with the Earth as they drive transformative social change for wellbeing.

Watch the session below.

Want to go further into the stories of the Bassari?

Visit Antoine’s online atelier, where you can learn more about the sacred objects used in Bassari traditions. Discover masks, clothing, jewellery, musical instruments, hunting materials and more in this virtual space created by Tostan and Atoflow.

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Discover Ecological BelongingDiscover Ecological Belonging

Meet and hear stories from the changemakers reconnecting with the Earth and wellbeing

How to Foster Mental Health Through the Arts: The Fann Psychiatric Clinic StoryHow to Foster Mental Health Through the Arts: The Fann Psychiatric Clinic Story

Stories from the Hearth

Hearth Summit Thiès Session With:

Alassane Seck

Art Therapist, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de FANN
🌍 Dakar, Senegal

In Senegal, mental illness is a taboo subject. The Atelier d’EX-pression Artistique of the Fann Psychiatric Clinic in Dakar, created in 1999, offers a unique place where patients, visitors and artists can come to express themselves, relax, paint and drink tea in a warm and welcoming environment; a rarity in a society that strongly stigmatizes people suffering from mental illness. The association aims to make art a primary means of therapy, work and rehabilitation for people suffering from mental disorders in Senegal.

During Hearth Summit Thiès 2024, Tostan collaborated with the association to host an interactive session on art therapy. Learn more about the approach from arts therapist Alassane Seck and program participants.

Across the Hearth Summits, the arts play a central role as a therapeutic wellbeing practice and a lens through which we can explore social change.

Watch the session below.

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The Filipino Changemakers Embracing Siquijor’s Traditional Healing PracticesThe Filipino Changemakers Embracing Siquijor’s Traditional Healing Practices

Talang Dalisay’s Macy Castañeda Lee Captures the Stories of the Island’s Most Sought-After Healers Ahead of Hearth Summit Philippines

Stories from the Hearth

Photo Essay From:

Macy Castañeda Lee

Co-Organizer of Hearth Summit Philippines 2025
🌍 Manila, Philippines

In July, I travelled to Siquijor Island, a Philippine island province located within the Negros Island Region. This beautiful and lush province lies in the south of Cebu, southeast of Negros Oriental, southwest of Bohol, and the North of Mindanao. I travelled there to help plan and organize Hearth Summit Philippines, alongside many passionate and dedicated Filipinos, Filipino Americans, and Americans.

From 14-17 January 2025, Hearth Summit Philippines will be the first regional wellbeing summit for social change held in the Philippines. The summit will be one of dozens of regional gatherings held around the world where changemakers are reflecting on, among many things, how embracing and reconnecting with local cultures and traditions can help inspire their social change work.

We are so excited to centre Hearth Summit Philippines on native Filipino healing practices, embracing lunas, the Tagalog word for “remedy” or “cure”. But like many words without a direct translation, lunas is more than that: it is an antidote, a medicine for what ails you in the broadest sense; the answers to help you get through a hard time. Lunas is an exhale after a long day, a comfort for weary souls, a balm for broken hearts, a practice of hope, and an invitation to come sit next to the fire with your loved ones.

In this sense, Lunas Pilipinas is our Indigenous/native/cultural understanding of the Hearth Summit Philippines, where we will engage 150 changemakers in an immersive journey to build a world that nurtures the wellbeing of our communities and the planet. Nestled in the lush Central Visayas region of Siquijor, the island’s unique cultural heritage and natural landscapes inspire our gathering. Once known as the mystical “Island of Fire”, Siquijor shares a rich history of traditional healing practices and environmental conservation – making it the ideal place to explore indigenous ways of knowing and their impact on our wellbeing.

Lunas is more than that: it is an antidote, a medicine for what ails you in the broadest sense; the answers to help you get through a hard time.

Lunas is an exhale after a long day, a comfort for weary souls, a balm for broken hearts, a practice of hope, and an invitation to come sit next to the fire with your loved ones.

To bring the wisdom of our native practices to our gathering, Lunas Pilipinas is a broad co-creation with many stakeholders, including my mental health organization, Talang Dalisay; the Siquijor Healers Association; local peoples; and other non-profits to help the Siquijor community, specifically its children and education.

Aside from working in advocacy and organizing, I also work as a documentary photographer. Ahead of the Summit, it was important for me to make sure I documented the Siquijor healers and highlight their work and identities. Annie, one of the leaders of the Siquijor Healers Association, is one of the key characters in this story. She lovingly invited us into her home up in the mountains to observe her healing process, to experience this healing ourselves, and to share her story. These images below are from those interactions at her home, where two other healers came to meet us; as well as some images from surrounding areas the Lunas  Pilipinas team explored around the island.

The wisdom of the Siquijor healers and the island itself will be deeply present at Lunas Pilipinas and beyond, inspiring our journeys in wellbeing and welldoing.

To learn more about the Summit and how you can participate, visit lunaspilipinas.com.

Butterfly larvae at a local butterfly farm in Siquijor. A part of the agenda of our trip as a team was to find feasible venues to host workshops and make participants interact deeply with local nature spots. This imagery caught my eye: it’s so symbolic of how aligned and grounded this island makes you feel. This is the start of the photo sequence; the budding of it all.

These are three of the oldest and most experienced Siquijor healers in Annie’s home in Siquijor.

The outside of Annie’s home. She lives on top of the mountain on Siquijor Island. She houses several chickens, piglets, bunnies, and cats. She lives with her family here, and community friends come often to the outdoor area to chat and hang out.

This is the entrance to Annie’s home, just outside of the room where she conducts her healing sessions. Many religious icons can be seen, such as statues of Mother Mary and Jesus Christ, reflecting the dominant religion that exists in many parts of the Philippines, which is Catholicism. Many Filipinos are both religious and spiritual.

Bolo Bolo

Annie healing one of our main Hearth Summit Philippines leaders and organizers, Renee. Annie blows river water with black stones in a clear glass with a bamboo straw. This is called the bolo bolo healing method, used to heal the patient from evil spirits and energy.

Here is a photograph of some oils that Annie makes, all sourced locally in Siquijor.

One of the healers, just outside Annie’s home. He has been working as a native healer for more than 20 years.

A Global Calling

Sessions at Annie’s home continue all day. Annie receives clients from all around the  world, as she is one of Siquijor’s most sought-after healers.

The bed where Annie and her family use to lay and rest, but also for her clients and  visitors. Light and shadows in her home fall very beautifully. Annie mostly relies on natural light in her home.

Community friends and healers visit Annie’s home often. This is a healer with Jang, one of the Hearth Summit Philippines’ local organizers and leaders.

One of the healers, just outside Annie’s home. He has been working as a native healer for more than 20 years.

Mothering

The sequence ends here, with one of Annie’s pigs with her piglets, right outside her home. The family has been raising all kinds of animals for the longest time. This photograph is so symbolic to me as it reflects the many people that Annie helps feed and grow. She is the mother of many in Siquijor island, after all. Life continues, life provides. When one gives, many grow. 

We are all so excited to share more about Filipino culture and wellbeing practices with the world.

Hearth Summit Philippines (Lunas Pilipinas) will take place from 14-17 January 2025 in Siquijor, Philippines. For more information, including how to participate, visit lunaspilipinas.com and find us on social media at @lunaspilipinas.

About Macy Castañeda Lee

Macy (they/them) is a non-binary Filipino photographer, organizer, public speaker, & curator. They focus on advocating for psychology, mental health, social justice, and education in the work they do.

Passionate about human beings, identity, vulnerability, and the mind, Macy calls themselves a “student for life”, consistently challenging the relationship between our external world with our internal one. With an early exposure to students with mental exceptionalities such as autism & down syndrome, Macy advocates for creating a more kind & empathic world through multi-media storytelling & research. They study how factors such as cultural movements, generational trauma, & societal norms affect the inner workings of our mind. In turn, they hope to share how humans are active agents that turn those factors over to the next generation & how important it is for one to break stigma in order to create more sustainable futures.

They run and founded a Philippine based non-profit, Talang Dalisay alongside its special project based organization, Bayan Kinaadman. They are the head curator & organizer of Worlds Through Minds, which is a people funded photography gallery and photo publication house which takes place around the world.

To date, they have organized & hosted over 50 community events online & in-person, given over 100 keynote speeches, written & copy edited over 30 articles, and worked & collaborated with around 200 non-profits/movements/individuals for their cause & passion.

About Talang Dalisay

Talang Dalisay is a non-profit organization founded in Manila, Philippines centering on mental health for our fellow Filipinos.  We are a young community of storytellers and change-makers, opening conversations on the current mental health stigmas in the country as well as aiding in the integration of persons with disabilities (PWDs) as members of our global community.

Our mission upholds the values of empathy, compassion, and empowerment. We aim to focus on action oriented projects that center on moving towards a society that validates the mental health and neurodivergence of Filipinos. We acknowledge that mental health is a systemic issue — it is an ever-changing and controversial topic especially as a BIPOC community. Thus, through our art and stories, we hope to create a higher consciousness and understanding of how to create inclusive spaces for all amidst these intersectionalities.

Our vision as an organization is to become a stepping stone for Filipinos to create spaces of inclusivity. Collectively, we hope to amplify the individual’s potential to shine purely; living in authenticity, truth, and purpose. Through our projects in elevating the mental health discourse, we hope to be one of many facets that encourage others to create more avenues for positive change, always embracing the ability in any disability.

To date, they have organized & hosted over 50 community events online & in-person, given over 100 keynote speeches, written & copy edited over 30 articles, and worked & collaborated with around 200 non-profits/movements/individuals for their cause & passion.

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